Chapter 1: The Concept–Reviewed & Revised (4/9/10)

Don Cameron in his book, Captives of a concept, in chapter 1 page 11 goes on to compare Jehovah’s Witnesses and the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society to David Koresh and his followers and Jim Jones and his followers. I believe Cameron does this purposefully to convey negative emotions and connotations when one thinks about the group known as Jehovah’s Witnesses. What other purpose would this comparison serve? This is also, by the way, a fallacy known as a “fallacious comparison.” Sneaky trick isn’t it? But anybody who is honest with themselves can easily see the problem. There is no comparison. This doesn’t need to be further explained or defined; it’s obvious. A simple look at the history of the Society and of Koresh and Jones proves any and all comparisons invalid.

On a footnote on page 11 Cameron states:

The Society promotes the belief that whatever they say, it is as if God is the One who is speaking. For example, the February 1, 1967 Watchtower says, “What (the Witnesses) are telling people is what God in his Word says; he is the one talking…. So too, God uses men to speak to those within the congregation of believers…When they give counsel…it is God who is speaking by means of them.”

Let’s see if what Cameron is saying is true. Let’s investigate if the February 1st, 1967 issue of the Watchtower is really giving an “example” for what Cameron claims the Society says, namely, “whatever they say, it is as if God is the One who is speaking.”

Quote:

Of course, not everyone listens to God by reading the Bible. But this does not muzzle God. No, because he sends his Christian witnesses to the homes of the people, to tell them about his kingdom, even as Jesus Christ foretold for our day: “This good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations.” (Matt. 24:14) This is being done in 199 lands and principal island groups. What they are telling people is what God in his Word says; he is the one talking.

So we learn that if the quote is read in context it is saying that God talks to people by means of those who preach ‘God’s Word,’ not that “whatever” “the Society promotes” “is as God is the One who is speaking.”  Great way to rip that quote out of context and misrepresent what the article actually says, Don. Let’s continue examining this footnote. He further cites the same Watchtower, but here’s what the quote says in context:

Quote:

So, too, God uses men to speak to those within the congregation of believers. For example, when overseers in the Christian congregation counsel their fellow believers, who really is speaking? Well, who designated them as overseers? It is God’s Word that set out the qualifications. If they are serving because they meet those qualifications, they are designated by God. When they give counsel in harmony with the Scriptures, it is God who is speaking by means of them.—1 Tim. 3:1-7.

Why does the article say that it is “God who is speaking by means of” men who “speak to those within the congregation of believers”? It even gives an example to clarify for us. Because these “men” meet the qualification laid out in God’s Word, the Bible in 1Timothy 3:1-7. Nothing more, nothing less and nothing to do with “the Society promot[ing]” “whatever they say” is true. But now the question remains: How do we know God “speaks” through those whom preach God’s Word? The article makes this very plain and very clear:

Quote:

They stick to God’s Word the Bible and faithfully teach what it says… they live in harmony with it… [And as] Jesus said… “they are no part of the world,” steering clear of involvement in its social and political strife… they produce the fruits of God’s spirit in their lives… they [are] readily identifiable as distinct from all others because they love one another as Jesus said would be true of those who really are in union with him and God his Father.

With this we have demonstrated that Don Cameron misapplied and misrepresented the original intent and meaning of the 1967 February 1st Watchtower.

On Page 12 Cameron continues:

One of the things that makes the Watchtower’s organizational concept so powerful is that nobody notices that it is “in fact, the dominant, controlling force” in their decision-making process.

Well, “nobody notices” because this simply isn’t true. Anyone making a decision does so with their own freedom of choice. However, it must be said and emphasized that they do try to make their decision harmonious with Bible principles and in agreement with their scripture-trained conscience, especially if it a big decision such as marriage , a new job, etc. but this is true of any Christian, not just Jehovah’s Witnesses. Notice, though, how Cameron merely asserts something as if it were true and doesn’t actually prove what he is asserting to be true. He doesn’t prove that there’s some “organization concept so powerful” that is ‘controlling their decisions.’ This is what is called a Bare Assertion Fallacy. This is defined as a fallacy in formal logic where a premise in an argument is assumed to be true merely because it says that it is true. Pay careful attention to this fallacy because it occurs and reoccurs too often in his book.

On Page 13 Cameron writes:

And in case anyone does think they notice something wrong, they are warned that they must never try to do anything about it but simply wait for God to do something about it because, after all, ‘It is his organization’

Then he goes on to quote the May 1st 1957 Watchtower as if it proves his point of Witnesses being instructed to “never try to do anything” with regards to disagreements. What he actually does is quote only part of the Watchtower issue and not the entire paragraph and in fact, leaves out the part that does refute his claim. Pretty dishonest tactic in my opinion, but I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he genuinely didn’t mean to misquote the magazine even though earlier he misapplied and misrepresented the 1967 Watchtower. The May 1st 1957 Watchtower actually says the following:

If we have become thoroughly convinced that this is Jehovah’s organization, that he is guiding and directing his people, then we shall not be unsettled by anything that happens. If something comes up that we do not understand we will wait patiently until it is made thoroughly clear to us. If we feel sure something is wrong we will ‘keep the commandment’ of our Father and take whatever theocratic steps are open to us and then wait on Jehovah

Clearly, then, we can see that the Watchtower article does say we can “take whatever theocratic steps are open to us” which conveniently, is a part of the article that Cameron left out. Would not an objective researcher take into consideration the full article and its context or would the researcher merely look for what may look good and run with it? I’ll let the reader answer that.

On page 14 Cameron goes on to say:

Belief in this concept has given the men of the Governing Body tremendous control over the thinking of the rest of Jehovah’s Witnesses. To question them, to doubt them, to disagree with them becomes the same as questioning, doubting and disagreeing with God himself!

This is simply not true. If the Governing Body says something that is in complete harmony with the Scriptures and we do question that, then in fact, it is questioning God because this counsel is Biblical. This is an obvious point, in my opinion. I don’t think anyone would dispute that. However, if we do find something that perhaps doesn’t fit with the Scriptures as harmonious as we’d like it to, then we can do as the May 1st 1957 Watchtower said, namely, we can “take whatever theocratic steps are open for us.” But of course, Cameron doesn’t mention this. Throughout his book Cameron tries to paint an image of Jehovah’s Witness that is severely misleading. He seems to suggest that Jehovah’s Witnesses simply accept the teachings of the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses without first confirming it to be true. In fact, the Society encourages its members to confirm these teachings by means of studying the Bible. For instance consider the following quote from the May 15th 1996 page 18:

Yes, every Christian who has the complete Bible in his language should read it from Genesis to Revelation. And our objective in reading the Bible and Christian publications should be to increase our comprehension of the great body of Scriptural truth that God has made available through the ‘faithful slave.

In the November 1st 1991 Watchtower on page 21, the Society encourages Jehovah’s Witnesses to “confirm the teachings”:

At Acts chapter 17, verse 11, people are called “noble-minded” because they were “carefully examining the Scriptures daily as to whether these things were so,” things taught by the apostle Paul. They were encouraged to use the Scriptures to confirm the teachings even of an apostle. You should do the same.

Many other articles and publications could be quoted to further back up my position, of course, but I think these 2 quotes are sufficient in expressing my point. Cameron’s assertions and misquotes can severely lead the reader to come to a conclusion that is in error. Jehovah’s Witnesses aren’t expected to simply accept any and all teachings just because they’re told so, but rather they are expected to “confirm the teachings” just as the Bible teaches and like the Society encourages.

Page 15 Cameron writes:

Witnesses don’t notice how often they accept what comes from the Society simply because they believe it is God’s organization rather than because they can prove it to themselves from the Bible

Give us an example Don. This is the sort of trickery I’m referring too. Cameron provides absolutely no examples or evidences for his assertions, but merely states his contentions as if they were factual. This is, again, a Bare Assertion Fallacy.

He continues on page 15:

Of all the things that can be known about this religion, there is only one thing that needs to be know

Let me state what he means and says by means of a chart in his book. He is suggesting that theology and all things involved with it don’t really matter; this is what can be known but isn’t necessary to know according to him. Cameron insists what is necessary to know is if the Society is God’s organization. However, this is an error. Off this error is where Cameron bases the next 130 page of his book. The way you know if a religion is true or not is if you can prove its theology from the Bible! When Cameron says that it doesn’t really matter what they teach about the Bible, what he is really doing is changing how to identify whether if what a religion teaches is true or not! This is such a subtle move that even looks harmless, but this is a very clever play with words. I would argue the other way around, I would say that you need to know theology first before you can determine if an organization is “God’s organization” or not. This, of course, is based on a premise that God wouldn’t “back up” a group whose teachings are completely unharmonious with the Bible. Seems logically enough to me. Why does Cameron disagree though?

Cameron writes on page 17:

Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that the Watchtower Society received that appointment in the spring of 1919 in fulfillment of the most important Scripture in Watchtower theology—Matthew 24:45-47.

This is another deliberate attempt by Cameron, which in my opinion, is to deceive his readers. This is most definitely not the most important Scripture and in fact, I don’t even know if there is a so called “most important Scripture” because Jehovah’s Witnesses believe “All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness” (2 Timothy 3:16).

However, if you want to talk in terms of most important teaching, then I’d have to say the most important teaching in Jehovah’s Witness theology is the belief in God and who he is. Take for instance this quote from the November 1st 1991 Watchtower on page 23:

Ask yourself: Why would the Bible only “imply” its most important teaching—who God is? The Bible is clear on other basic teachings; why not on this, the most important one?

Cameron, instead of attacking the beliefs of Jehovah’s Witnesses, goes on to attack the Watchtower Bible and Track Society in hopes of somehow discrediting what Jehovah’s Witnesses believe. However, Cameron needs to be corrected. Jehovah’s Witnesses don’t believe the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society was “appointed” as God’s organization in 1919.  This will be a point I further develop in later blogs.

Published in: on January 3, 2010 at 1:41 pm  Comments (27)  

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  1. STRS,

    STRS,

    You said, “Jehovah’s Witnesses don’t believe the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society was “appointed” as God’s organization in 1919.”

    What then do they believe? When was the Society appointed as God’s organization?

    Don

  2. STRS,

    You said, “Chapter 2 in Cameron’s book deals with “the most important Scripture in Watchtower theology”, which he concludes is Matthew 24:45-47. Even after reading his book, I still don’t know how he comes to this conclusion.”

    I came to this conclusion when I finally noticed that it is just as Peter Gregerson expressed it when he said, “Everything always comes back to the question, ‘Is the Watchtower Society and its leadership the ‘faithful and discreet slave’?”

    Perhaps you haven’t notice how often the Governing Body appeals to this Scripture in order to remind the Witnesses why they need to believe whatever the Governing Body is teaching at the present time.

    As I say in the book, in order to see how things really work with this religion it helps to look at their teachings that have been changed and observe how the Witnesses are required to react to such changes.

    Why are they so willing to change what they believe whenever the Governing Body changes what it is teaching (as they have done with the recent change of the generation of 1914 teaching)?

    It is not because they believe that Jesus is the Christ or even that Jehovah is God. It is because they believe that the Society is God’s organization, which in turn comes from the way they interpret Matthew 24:45-47.

    It is that belief rather than the Bible that ultimately dominates and controls how they think and act.

    I’m sure you and the rest of the Witnesses don’t agree. I didn’t agree either until I came to realize that Jehovah and Jesus have never had anything to do with the Watchtower’s version of the Christian religion.

    I don’t know if you realize how many of your and ThirdWitness’ reasonings are driven by your belief that the Society is Jesus’ FDS.

    For examples:

    Would you interpret Daniel 12:10 the same way you now do if you didn’t believe the Society is God’s organization?

    Would you believe that Jesus’ invisible presence began in 1914 if you didn’t believe the Society is God’s organization?

    Would you believe that the Gentile Times ended in 1914 if you didn’t believe the Society is God’s organization?

    Would you agree with the Society’s interpretation of Matthew 24:45-47 if you didn’t believe the Society is God’s organization? Etc.

    Don

  3. STRS,

    You said, “It is important to remember that ‘God’s organization’ is made up of all those who work together to do Jah’s will in heaven and on earth.”

    When it comes to the matters like ‘loyalty to the organization’ I prefer Raymond Franz’s explanation:

    “When the Governing Body urges ‘loyalty to the organization’ they must know, they certainly should know, that they are not talking about the thousands of congregations and their members that the organization directs. They are talking about loyalty to the source of the direction, the source of the teachings, the source of the authority. Whether the Governing Body members acknowledge it or whether they prefer not to think about it, the fact remains that in these crucial aspects, THEY, AND THEY ALONE, are ‘the organization.’”

    That’s why I added the thought that the various terms that are used for “God’s organization” in actual practice refer to the men hidden behind those terms. i.e. the men of the Governing Body.

    And that since prior to 1976 the source of the direction, teachings and authority was in the hands of the one man who was the president at the time, the terms for “God’s organization” then referred to the president, and him alone. The Proclaimers book even acknowledges that all during his presidency “Russell was ‘the Society.”

    The above is not presented as what Jehovah’s Witnesses actually believe. It’s that they don’t realize that this is the way it is with their religion.

    I eventually concluded that just as the Branch Davidians were followers of David Koresh and the People’s Temple were followers of Jim Jones. Jehovah’s Witnesses are followers of the men hidden behind their illusionary “God’s organization.”

    I see this reality every time the Governing Body changes one of their teachings (like the recent one about the generation of 1914). Witnesses have been carefully groomed to follow these men (“God’s organization”) ‘no matter what happens.’

    Don

  4. STRS,

    You said, “They stick to God’s Word the Bible and faithfully teach what it says.”

    But Russell and Rutherford didn’t stick to God’s Word the Bible or faithfully teach what it says about the 48 teachings I mention in the book.

    For exampe: For 67 years the Society didn’t stick to God’s Word or faithfully teach what it says about when Jesus would return to begin his parousia.

    Don

  5. STRS,

    You said, “They stick to God’s Word the Bible and faithfully teach what it says.”

    But Russell and Rutherford didn’t stick to God’s Word the Bible or faithfully teach what it says about the 48 teachings I mention in the book.

    For example: For 67 years the Society didn’t stick to God’s Word or faithfully teach what it says about when Jesus would return to begin his parousia.

    And if they still have the wrong date (1914) it means that they have not stuck to God’s Word or faithfully taught what the Bible says about this subject for 134 years!

    Don

  6. STRS,

    In the book I say that all Jehovah’s Witnesses made the same mistake before they got baptized of not carefully examining what Russell and Rutherford had been teaching “down till 1919” to make sure they were the right things to be teaching and the proper time to be teaching them according to the way Society interprets Matthew 24:45-47.

    I you and ThirdWitness say that you didn’t make that mistake then you two are the only exceptions I am aware of.

    But I think it is more likely that your examination of those teachings occurred AFTER you were baptized – AFTER you both became captives of the Society’s God’s-organization concept way of worship.

    You and ThirdWitness have shown me that you will not allow anything inside the Bible or the Society’s history to suggest that the Society may not be Jehovah’s organization or Jesus’ “faithful and discreet slave.”

    All I can do is try to apply 2 Timothy 2:23-25 and see what happens.

    Don

  7. STRS,

    You said, “Cameron, instead of attacking the beliefs of Jehovah’s Witnesses, goes on to attack the Watchtower Bible and Track Society in hopes of somehow discrediting what Jehovah’s Witnesses believe.”

    Their only belief I “attack” is the Society’s claim to be God’s organization based on their interpretation of Matthew 24:45-47.

    The book tries to show that according to their interpretation and the organization’s history that relates to their interpretation, Jehovah God and Jesus Christ have never had anything to do with the Watchtower Society.

    From my experience so far, Witnesses who are ready to face the truth about the Society are grateful to come to this realization.

    But for those who are not ready to face such a truth, they resent anyone who suggests such a thing.

    Don

  8. STRS,

    You (or ThirdWitness) said, “Don Cameron…goes on to compare Jehovah’s Witnesses and the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society to David Koresh and his followers and Jim Jones and his followers.”

    Not true.

    I don’t compare the Witnesses with the followers of Jones or Koresh. I referred to them along with suicide bombers and what happened on 9/11/01 as examples of just how far people can be willing to go when they believe that what they are being told is coming from God. And since Witnesses believe that what they are being told is coming from “God’s organization” they therefore believe it is coming from God.

    What I said is, “The destruction of the World Trade Center buildings on 9/11/01 and suicide/homicide bombings show how far people are willing to go when they believe that what they are being told to do is what God requires them to do.”

    Jehovah’s Witnesses can see easily see this mistake when others make it. But they cannot see them making that same mistake because they don’t notice the men they are following. Rather they see “God organization.”

    You said, “A simple look at the history of the Society and of Koresh and Jones proves any and all comparisons invalid.”

    But there IS one comparison that is valid. They were (or are) were under the illusion that what is said came from God.

    Don

  9. STRS,

    You asked, “How do we know God “speaks” through those who preach God’s Word?”

    You answered, “They stick to God’s Word the Bible and faithfully teach what it says.”

    But they didn’t “stick to God’s Word the Bible” or “faithfully teach what it says” about the 48 teachings I mentioned in the book.”

    For example: For 67 years (1876 – 1943) they had not stuck to God’s Word the Bible or faithfully taught what it says about the time for Jesus return to begin his parousia.

    Obviously Jehovah wasn’t speaking through Russell or Rutherford about that extremely important matter. And I have no reason to believe that all of the sudden in 1943 Jehovah finally began speaking through Knorr about this subject.

    Don

  10. STRS,

    You said, “Cameron doesn’t prove that there’s some “organization concept so powerful” that is ‘controlling their decisions.’”

    How about this: Prior to November of 1995 I assume that you believed what the masthead page of the Awake magazine here it said that it was “the Creator’s promise” of new world before the generation of 1914 passed away.

    I assume you stopped believing that “Creator’s promise” when the Society stopped teaching it. If so, Why?

    What was so powerful to cause you to change your mind about this subject? If you now believe the Governing Body’s new “overlapping” explanation which is nowhere stated in the Bible. Why?

    I haven’t been able to change your mind about anything. And yet you are perfectly willing to change your mind the moment the Society tells you to change it. Why is that? What makes the difference?

    I suspect that it is because you believe that the Society is God’s organization and that I’m not.

    Don

  11. STRS,

    You said, “If before 1976 there wasn’t a governing body (according to Cameron)…”

    I didn’t say that there wasn’t a governing body before 1976. Ray Franz explained that although there was a governing body prior to 1976 they didn’t become involved (in the decision-making process of determining what Witnesses are to believe) until 1976.

    Don

  12. STRS,

    You said the purpose of Witnesses’ going door to door is “not to teach a history lesson of the beginnings of the Society.”

    Unfortunately that is true. I say “unfortunately” for two reasons:

    (1) I feel that if most Witnesses had learned the Society’s true history “down till 1919” and understood what it meant in connection with Matthew 24:45-47 they would not now be going door-to-door as one of “Jehovah’s Witnesses.” I know that would have been true in my own case.

    (2) If Witnesses did go door-to-door to teach the Society’s history I don’t see how anyone on earth would then take them up on their offer of a free Bible study.

    Don

  13. STRS.

    You said, “Cameron argues since the Society believed 1874 marked Jesus’ invisible presence, therefore, in 1914 they could not have been on the watch for Jesus and his Kingdom. Is this true?”

    No. This is not true!

    Once again you and ThirdWitness misrepresent what I am saying in the book. What I do argue is that since the Society believed 1874 marked THE BEGINNING of Jesus’ invisible presence, therefore, in 1914 they could not have been on the watch FOR THE BEGINNING of Jesus’ invisible presence.

    I assume that you, ThirdWitness and even someone from the planet Mars would agree with my actual argument.

    But for whatever reason you misrepresent my argument and then say, “Either (1) Cameron purposely lied about Russell and Rutherford not knowing the 1914 date, or (2) Cameron is ignorant of the very facts he has claimed to have studied in depth. Either way it doesn’t look good for him.”

    But when it realized that you (or more likely ThirdWitness) have changed my argument to make it appear that I lied and/or am ignorant of ‘the facts’ then who does it not look good for?

    Don Cameron
    CaptivesOfaConcept.com

    Clearly, then, both Russell and Rutherford acknowledged Christ’s return in 1914. It sure seems that for someone who supposedly studied the history of the society, doesn’t really know much about it. Either Cameron purposely lied about Russell and Rutherford not knowing the 1914 date, or Cameron is ignorant of the very facts he has claimed to have studied in depth. Either way it doesn’t look good for him.

  14. NOTE: The above paragraph after my name are your comments that I had already used in my response. I meant to delete that paragraph before submitting my post.

  15. STRS,

    I said, “And in case anyone does think they notice something wrong, they are warned that they must never try to do anything about it but simply wait for God to do something about it because, after all, ‘It is his organization’”

    You then said, “Clearly, then, we can see that the Watchtower article does say we can “take whatever theocratic steps are open to us” which conveniently, is a part of the article that Cameron left out.”

    What “theocratic steps are open” to a Witnesses who “feels something is wrong”? The only one I am aware of is to “wait on God to do something about it.”

    For example, prior to November of 1995 what theocratic steps were open to a Witness who felt that the Governing Body was wrong when they said it was the Creator’s promise that the new system will be here before the generation of 1914 passes away?

    Have you seen that September 1, 1980 Governing Body letter to all Circuit and District overseers? I don’t see any theocratic steps that are open to a Witness who disagrees with anything the Governing Body is teaching. They either had to stop believing that the Governing Body was wrong or be disfellowshipped.

    The April 1 1986 Watchtower says that Witnesses are “required” to accept everything the Governing Body is currently teaching in order to have “approved association with Jehovah’s Witnesses. There was no mention of any theocratic steps that could be taken by Witnesses who felt the Governing Body was wrong about anything.

    To me it is just part of the illusion to think that Jehovah’s Witnesses who disagree with the Governing Body can take any meaningful “steps” to resolve an issue of disagreement and not be disfellowshipped.

    And so again STRS, what theocratic steps do you see that are open for Witnesses to take?

    Don

  16. STRS,

    You said, “The truth is the belief system of Jehovah’s Witnesses is based on the Bible and not on a “small governing body of men.”

    But the 48 teachings in my book were not “based on the Bible.” They were based on the imaginations of just two men: Russell and Rutherford.

    Don

  17. STRS,

    Here is one of your statements that I just noticed…

    You were pointing out that religions that were “formed in the 1930s and 50s” means “they would have missed (the beginning of) Jesus’ parousia in 1914 and therefore, couldn’t have even been inspected in 1918-1919.”

    I think your reasoning is that therefore such religions could never have God’s backing because they would have missed both (the beginning of) Jesus’ parousia in 1914 and his inspection in 1918-1919.

    That sounds OK.

    But what about the Watchtower Society since they were formed BEFOR 1914?

    I think your reasoning in this case is that therefore they would NOT have missed the beginning of Jesus’ parousia in 1914 or his inspection in 1918-1919.

    But we know the Society DID miss the beginning of Jesus’ parousia in 1914. According to the Proclaimers book they missed it for 29 years – until 1943.

    If other religions were disqualified from receiving God’s backing because they missed the beginning of Jesus’ parousia in 1914 then why wouldn’t the Society have been just as disqualified?

    Don

  18. STRS,

    You said, “Cameron’s argument is with Bible prophecy not with Jehovah’s Witnesses.”

    That is not correct. My argument is with THE SOCIETY’S INTERPRETATION of Bible prophecy.

    You apparently don’t notice the difference between what the Bible actually SAYS and what you think it MEANS. I always try to notice the difference.

    Take Malachi 3:3 for example where it says, “And he must sit as a refiner and cleanser of silver and must cleanse the sons of Le’vi;’ and he must clarify them like gold and like silver, and they will certainly become to Jehovah people representing a give offering of righteousness.”

    Here the Bible SAYS that refining and cleansing will apply to “the sons of Levi.” But you and the Society force Malachi to MEAN that it applies to all of teachings of the Watchtower Society that have not been true.

    Again, my argument is not with what Malachi said. It is what you do with what he said.

    You are welcome to force the Bible to say whatever you want it to say. I try not to do so.

    Don

  19. “The Gentile times ended in the autumn of 1914. The evidence is quite conclusive that here the Lord Jesus Christ, in obedience to God’s command, stood up and began to exercise his power. (Daniel 12:1; Psalm 110:1,2; Revelation 11:17,18; Matthew 24:7)”
    Clearly, then, both Russell and Rutherford acknowledged Christ’s return in 1914. It sure seems that for someone who supposedly studied the history of the society, doesn’t really know much about it. Either Cameron purposely lied about Russell and Rutherford not knowing the 1914 date, or Cameron is ignorant of the very facts he has claimed to have studied in depth. Either way it doesn’t look good for him.
    STRS,

    As I have said many times, in my book every time I refer to Jesus’ return I am ALWAYS referring to his return to begin his parousia either in 1874 or 1914.

    That was the return I was referring to when I said that according to the Proclaimers book Russell and Rutherford never acknowledged that 1914 marked Jesus’ return to begin Jesus’ parousia. I make this point very clear in my book so that there is no excuse to misunderstand it. And yet that is what you and ThirdWitness have chosen to do.

    You (or ThirdWitness) reason about a completely different return that has absolutely nothing to do with Jesus’ return to begin his parousia and then say, “Clearly, then, both Russell and Rutherford acknowledged Christ’s return in 1914.”

    That statement is not true about the “return” I’m referring to in my book. You seem to have gone out of your way to misunderstand what I have said on purpose so that you can then place me in a very bad light by saying the following…

    “It sure seems that for someone who supposedly studied the history of the society, doesn’t really know much about it. Either Cameron purposely lied about Russell and Rutherford not knowing the 1914 date, or Cameron is ignorant of the very facts he has claimed to have studied in depth. Either way it doesn’t look good for him.”

    I agree that it sure doesn’t look good for someone. I can only hope your readers are able to figure out who that someone is.

    Don

  20. STRS,

    You said, “Cameron merely asserts something as if it were true and doesn’t actually prove what he is asserting to be true. He doesn’t prove that there’s some “organization concept so powerful” that is ‘controlling their decisions.’”

    One of the proofs I offer in my book has to do with why Jehovah’s Witnesses are so willing to change what they believe the Governing Body changes what it teaches. It isn’t because they believe that Jesus is the Christ or even that Jehovah is God. Rather it is because they believe the Society is God’s organization.

    What about you? What controlled your decision to accept the Governing Body’s latest “overlapping” explanation of the generation of 1914?

    Is it because you clearly see that explanation in the Bible? If not then what controlled your decision believe it?

    Or perhaps you don’t accept their explanation?

    Don

  21. STRS,

    You said, “The presence (parousia) is something that Cameron horridly misrepresents. He portrays Jesus’ “presence” as if it were a past event and therefore, the Bible Students missed it.”

    You are mistaken. It is THE BEGINNING OF Jesus’ parousia that I portray as a past event that already happened either in 1874 or 1914. On the very first page of my book I explain, “The Society teaches that Jesus returned TO BEGIN his “invisible presence” in 1914.”

    Nowhere in my book do I say or even suggest that Jesus’ parousia was a one time event that was over once it happened in 1874 or 1914;

    And so once again you have “horridly misrepresented” me and my book.

    If you and ThirdWitness do this on purpose then shame on you. If you do this by accident then I would be very willing to accept your apology..

    Don

  22. STRS.

    You asked, “How is it that the Bible Students missed Jesus’ presence? Maybe Cameron can answer that for us.”

    Answer: They missed THE BEGINNING of Jesus’ presence in 1914 because they believed it had already begun in 1874.

    Don

  23. STRS,

    Here is something ThirdWitness posted on Topix a while back where he once again misrepresented me and my book several times and then accuses me of “deceitful falsehoods.”

    He said, “DonCameron wrote:
    “1) Neither Russell or Rutherford ever knew that Jesus returned in 1914.”
    NOTE:The context of that statement is that they never knew t hat Jesus returned in 1914 TO BEGIN HIS PAROUSIA.

    “2) They indiscreetly announced the wrong date for 67 years
    NOTE: The context is that they announced the wrong date OF THE BEGINNING OF JESUS’ PAROUSIA.

    “3) They didn’t faithfully wait for God to reveal the time of Jesus’ return.
    NOTE: The context was that they didn’t faithfully wait for God to reveal the time of Jesus’ return TO BEGIN HIS PAROUSIA.

    “4) The Society made Jesus knock for 29 years before they acknowledged his return in 1914.”
    NOTE: The context was that the Society made Jesus knock for 29 years before they acknowledged his return in 1914 TO BEGIN HIS PAROUSIA.

    “5) They were not faithfully waiting for Jesus’ return in 1914.”
    NOTE: The context was that they were not faithfully waiting for Jesus’ return in 1914 TO BEGIN HIS PAROUSIA.

    ThirdWitness continued, “But Don Cameron tries to deceive us and lead us to a false conclusion. He wants his reader to believe that since:

    “A. They thought Jesus’ Parousia began in 1874…”
    NOTE: That is a true statement.

    “B. They could not have been watching for Jesus in 1914…
    NOTE: The context is that they could not have been watching for Jesus in 1914 TO BEGIN HIS PAROUSIA.

    “C. They did not recognize that he took invisible power in 1914 until 1943…”
    NOTE: The context was that they did not recognized THE BEGINNING OF JESUS’ INVISIBLE PRESENCE until 1943.

    “D. They could not have passed the test since they failed to recognize Jesus in 1914.”
    NOTE: The context was that one of the reasons I feel they could not have passed the test was because they failed to recognize that Jesus’ INVISIBLE PRESENCE BEGAN in 1914.

    Then, based on all the above misrepresentations of what I have said in the book ThirdWitness concludes, “This is a deceitful falsehood.”

    What does it mean when ThirdWitness as to misrepresent what I have said in order to arrive at his conclusion?

    Does he do this on purpose in order to intentionally mislead his readers as he accuses me of doing?

    Is he so intent on winning an argument that he honestly doesn’t realize what he has to do to win?

    I don’t know what the answers are.

    Don Cameron

  24. STRS,
    I said, “One of the things that makes the Watchtower’s organizational concept so powerful is that nobody notices that it is “in fact, the dominant, controlling force” in their decision-making process.”

    You then said, “Notice, though, how Cameron merely asserts something as if it were true and doesn’t actually prove what he is asserting to be true. He doesn’t prove that there’s some “organization concept so powerful” that is ‘controlling their decisions.’”

    How about the following proof:

    What was the dominant, controlling force that was so powerful that in September of 1995 it caused some 6,000,000 Witnesses to immediately stop believing that it was the Creator’s promise that they new system will be here before he generation of 1914 passes away?

    If not the Society’s God’s organization concept then what?

    What was the controlling force in 1943 that caused all Witnesses to believe that Jesus’ invisible presence began in 1914 rather than 1874? If it was not because they all believed that the Society is Jehovah’s organization then what was that force?

    Why is it that Jehovah’s Witnesses are always willing to change what they believe whenever the Society changes what it is teaching? If not because they believe the Society is God’s organization then why?

    Don

  25. STRS,

    You (or ThirdWitness) said, “This is evidence Christ is truly refining his temple as the Bible had prophesied in the Hebrew and Christian Greek Scriptures.”

    What exactly is the evidence that all of the Society’s previous teachings that were not true were corrected because Jesus stepped in and ‘refined’ those teachings in fulfillment of Daniel 12:10 and Malachi 3:3?

    Since neither Daniel or Malachi actually said anything about refining or cleansing the Society’s incorrect teachings then it would seem that the only actual evidence is, “Because the Society says so.”

    That’s not enough reliable evidence for me.

    Don

  26. STRS,

    You said that it “seems logical enough that God wouldn’t ‘back up’ a group whose teachings are completely unharmonious with the Bible.”

    And so what does it mean when the 48 teachings in my book were “completely unharmonious with the Bible”?

    What do Russell’s and Rutherford’s thousands of statements that were completely unharmonious with the Bible mean?

    If you feel that they all can be explained by simply applying the Society’s interpretation of Daniel 12 and Malachi 3 then that is your right to do so.

    Since I no longer believe that the Society is God’s organization then I have no reason to believe that Jesus would back up their interpretation of Daniel or Malachi.

    Don

  27. STRS,

    You (or ThirdWitness) said…

    “Jehovah’s Witnesses aren’t expected to simply accept any and all teachings just because they’re told so, but rather they are expected to “confirm the teachings” just as the Bible teaches and like the Society encourages.”

    But have the Witnesses been able to “confirm the Society’s teachings” that were not true?

    The 48 mentioned in my book could not be confirmed and yet the Witnesses were “expected to simply accept all of them because they were told to do so.”

    Did you confirm their pre-1995 teaching about “the Creator’s promise” of a new world before the generation of 1914 passed away? Did you confirm the Society’s post-1995 teaching on this subject? Did you confirm the new “overlapping” teaching on this matter?

    I think this is one of the examples that Ray Franz had in mind when he said, “So often what is said is not what is done.” The Governing Body often says the right things but what they say is not always the way things actually work.

    Don


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